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Post by Reem on Aug 2, 2007 3:41:22 GMT -5
Is the basis of science the questioning of what one does not understand?
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Post by taffy341 on Aug 2, 2007 3:55:38 GMT -5
Reem: That quote was a reply to the poster that was very rude and negative,,,,,, the poster was not maturely discussing but rudely making insulting comments.... Mature questioning & replys and/or discussions never offends with "... close-minded arrogance and stupidity..."
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Post by jmdewey60 on Aug 2, 2007 22:56:46 GMT -5
The foundation of Todd's mission that he is on is this idea of preserving a B F habitat, or making it a crime to shoot a B F? Once that goal is accomplished he will drop out of the B F scene? I wonder if anyone has questioned if if this scheme is a good idea, or if anyone has considered the possible consequences if these changes actually came about. Personally, I do not like it. I hate that these old roads I used to ride my motorcycle on are now restricted to walking only. Where I used to camp in the summer, as a kid, you can not even camp there anymore,and you have to have a permit to even be there. All this regulation bothers me, especially when there was never any problem to start with. These changes were completely unnecessary, except to the ego of some ninny who is afraid that something "MIGHT" happen. To me, B F is like a coyote. They figure out how to get by in the suburbs. In an actual wilderness they are at an advantage over Humans. Whether B F flourishes or dies out does not have anything to do with that goes on in the wilderness. If you want B F to advance, you have to get rid of Humans from the areas where people live. I am not in favor of that. I like living where things are nice and where we can have a nice community and a nice standard of living. Some people think that Humans are a threat to the planet. That if we just got out of the way (like nuclear war or Nazi style death camps or some engineered disease) the earth can heal itself. Yes, if we were all dead, B F can take over our habitat and have a great life. No thanks. I do not want to be replaced. So, you will not find my name on the petition, and I am a little suspicious of the motives of this group. Anyway, I want to do some of my own research to find the name of someone who was killed by B F. Not from the story that Todd was reporting, but from my own.
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Post by malyss on Aug 3, 2007 14:21:28 GMT -5
The foundation of Todd's mission that he is on is this idea of preserving a B F habitat, or making it a crime to shoot a B F? Once that goal is accomplished he will drop out of the B F scene? I wonder if anyone has questioned if if this scheme is a good idea, or if anyone has considered the possible consequences if these changes actually came about. Personally, I do not like it. I hate that these old roads I used to ride my motorcycle on are now restricted to walking only. Where I used to camp in the summer, as a kid, you can not even camp there anymore,and you have to have a permit to even be there. All this regulation bothers me, especially when there was never any problem to start with. These changes were completely unnecessary, except to the ego of some ninny who is afraid that something "MIGHT" happen. To me, B F is like a coyote. They figure out how to get by in the suburbs. In an actual wilderness they are at an advantage over Humans. Whether B F flourishes or dies out does not have anything to do with that goes on in the wilderness. If you want B F to advance, you have to get rid of Humans from the areas where people live. I am not in favor of that. I like living where things are nice and where we can have a nice community and a nice standard of living. Some people think that Humans are a threat to the planet. That if we just got out of the way (like nuclear war or Nazi style death camps or some engineered disease) the earth can heal itself. Yes, if we were all dead, B F can take over our habitat and have a great life. No thanks. I do not want to be replaced. So, you will not find my name on the petition, and I am a little suspicious of the motives of this group. Anyway, I want to do some of my own research to find the name of someone who was killed by B F. Not from the story that Todd was reporting, but from my own. You will likely be dead in 40-60 years and there will be plenty of humans to fill in your spot. While you may be a respectful human, the others that follow you might not. I am thankful someone in our past decided to protect us from ourselves and our wasteful nature by relegating national parkland for other species, and for humans to enjoy, learn from and to marvel at. Without them there would be no old growth and there would certainly be more endangered or obsolete species. I for one love viewing this uncharted territory and DESPISE any other human who would conspire to take that from me or my children's children. What on earth gives humans the right to overtake the whole planet like some kind of scourge and destroy it to our heart's content? It's sweet that you want to enjoy the wilderness, but what about your anscestors...will there be anything left for them? Did you ask your grandkids if they like the idea of you using up and disposing of their legacy? If they might someday like to see a black bear in the wild, or to catch a wild salmon from a river? I'm sure they love the idea of your 4x4 marking up the landscape and spewing filth into our air supply. As long as YOU are enjoyed yourself. Keeping ourselves curbed seems a small price to pay to keep the planet alive for ALL of us for millenia to come. I used to love Kelowna when I was a kid. It was beautiful and peaceful and small and was a wonderful place to vacation. I was just there last week and it is a hell hole! Humanity has completely laid bare the hills around the area and our dwellings spot the landscape. The city itself is wall to wall mall. Thanks mom and dad. Thanks "me" generation. We now have another Kamloops! Don't worry about the earth...it takes care of itself. One good wildfire could've easily taken care of Kelowna at one time...except now all the trees surrounding it are gone. What was once an oasis is now a desert. Maybe some form of pestulance or plague will do the job? Bigfoot will most likely gravitate toward natural parks, or maybe even start encroaching on us. The hills truly do have eyes. Eyes in a head that towers a good 2 to four feet above yours.
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Post by jmdewey60 on Aug 3, 2007 17:12:33 GMT -5
Oh, Malyss, sorry about what happened to the trees at Kelowna. I went to their web site and the picture from the lake shows the mountains behind the city looking like about half logged. I was helping build a new house today and noticed the 2 x 4's had Canada stamped on them. There is no easy solution about lumber. The local Indians, where I lived in southern California own forest land right up against the national forest and they cut their trees to sell, but they did a lot more damage to the land than what happens on the National forest. I think that I do not know much about British Columbia, what kind of protection for the forests there is, and I have to admit that I do not really know, exactly, what Todd wants to do. To quote you, "...love viewing this uncharted territory...". I agree with that sort of feeling. I am more worried about loosing the right to explore that territory, than I am of that territory, all of a sudden disappearing. I am more concerned with the rights of Humans than the right of animals, even if they look kind of like us. Uganda has a real problem with habitat destruction and poaching of mountain gorillas. That kind of thing makes me sick. I would agree with making a preserve for those animals. B F, I think, really does not enjoy being forced out to places that humans would never want to live in, in the first place. They were probably the dominant animal before Humans showed up. To be really compassionate, we would have to give up settled land. But, you know what, I do not want to have a big "DO NOT ENTER" sign in the middle of a map, where there were towns. I am not into trashing the environment. I paddle a Kayak and there are lots of nice places to go, and I can not imagine myself on a jet ski pumping raw oil and fumes into that water. There are places where motorized vessels are not allowed. I think that is great. But I would not want to run into a "NO HUMANS ALLOWED" area.
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Post by Jasocal on Aug 4, 2007 1:44:09 GMT -5
Okay, I know nothing about this topic but I've caught Mr. Standing on Coast to Coast a couple of times now late Saturday night driving home from my hockey games so I thought I'd look at his stuff.
Okay, no offense here to Mr. Standing or his defenders. Some of you supporters get a bit prickly I've noticed. But it does seem bit weird that the film gets stuck at customs, the family of the man bigfoot killed has asked his name not be used. It seems the evidence is never quite there. So to a pure layman who cares less about this topic than anyone reading this post, it seems a bit suspicious.
But on to my real question. Mr. Standing says he's doing all of this for species protection. Why does bigfoot need protection? It sounds like a veritable army of "PHd's" around the world are on the march looking for this animal and no one can produce so much as a strand of hair or a chunk of bigfoot poop. We have clear as day images from the freaking surface of Mars but no one's ever snapped a verifiable photo or a clear film of this creature. It's not like mankind's expansion has harmed these animals if they exist. I mean, we don't have vintage photos of wilderness scouts standing over the bodies of the bigfoot they've killed either.
So in hundreds of years on this continent, we haven't killed one and can't even prove one has died. We haven't captured one, nor injured one with our vehicles. We haven't filmed one clearly, stepped in their poop or come across any testable forensic evidence of their existence.
So what danger are we to them? Is it not far more likely if Mr. Standing succeeds in his mission to locate and observe these creatures using repeatable methods that protective laws or not, ill-intentioned persons will kill or exploit these animals?
If the mountain gorilla was believed to be a myth by 99% of the world's population and had not been proven to exist, would their population be 700 or would it be more? If you could return them to that status...would you? Or would you be blazing a path through the jungle for the poachers to follow?
I don't think Mr. Standing or any of you are really motivated by a desire to protect the species. I think that's an ecologically friendly explanation that makes no logical sense. I think you want to find them because you want to know. A great mystery unraveled.
So Mr. Standing...what status would be more safe for an animal than having 99% of the world think you're a myth and the other 1% completely incapable of finding so much as a hair from you?
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Post by jmdewey60 on Aug 4, 2007 7:01:08 GMT -5
I have to agree with Jasocal. I believe in B F, mainly because I stood four feet away from one and was looking at it pretty much at a level to its belly. But I never try to get anyone else to believe in it. To me, it is just as well if most people do not. Usually I bring up my stories during a conversation about UFOs. I use them as a way of making my point that if you see a UFO, do not try to get closer. You might find yourself in a situation that you can not get yourself out of. I apply the same advice to any one with a close encounter with B F, to a close encounter with Aliens. If you can get away, do it. Whatever you have to do, focus on that one goal, to put whatever you have to, between yourself and it, to make yourself safe. The one thing that I have to disagree with, that Jasocal said is, "...we don't have vintage photos of wilderness scouts standing over the bodies of the bigfoot they've killed either." First, they would not have had cameras. And, if someone would have gone off to find a photographer, when they got back, the body would have been gone. I think the main B F killing would have taken place when Human populations came into areas that were previously inhabited by B F. There would be an inevitable confrontation over resources and someone, or something, would end up dead.
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Post by jmdewey60 on Aug 4, 2007 7:54:02 GMT -5
I have some time, my day off, to expand on my previous post about my running into mountain lions. It may be relevant to this forum because I think the circumstances could be applied to a B F encounter. My brother and I were walking on a forestry road that followed the main ridge of this mountain. The road would cross over from one side of the ridge to the other, at some of the lower spots. It was cut into the side of the hill, with a ten foot vertical bank on one side, and a drop-off, down the side of the mountain, on the other side. We heard a noise of something crashing through the brush below, so we went to the edge and looked down. A large buck was going hell-bent down hill, at a diagonal, right below us. Something was chasing it, and the buck was running for its life.(we could see the deer just enough to tell what it was, for a second, here and there. We could hear what was chasing it, but could not see it.) We watched until we could not see anything and it was too far away to follow exactly where the sound was coming from. We went on our way for a few seconds, and as soon as we got around the corner of the road we were face to face with three mountain lions that were following the trail of the first one, who was at the heels of the deer. It was the female and two large youngsters. The cubs immediately jumped off the side of the road and disappeared. The mother stood her ground, until she felt that the cubs were far enough away. She then jumped UP the bank, into some rocks, like is was no effort. We knew that she could just have easily been on top of us with one leap. She was above our path and we decided to proceed but we pulled our pocket knives out and tried to look tough until we were down the road and on the other side of the ridge. (of course, we took time to examine all the foot prints in the soft dust on the road. The cub's were the size of the palm of our hands. The female's was the size of our hands, to the middle of our fingers. The male's prints were the size of our whole hands. We saw that the female was a normal sized mountain lion. We figured the male must have been huge. There were stories from the ranchers who lived down the mountain, directly below this spot, that there was an unusually large black panther that lived in the area. we also saw the deer tracks. They had been running down the road until it turned so sharp that they kept going straight, right off the side of the mountain.) So, my point is, if you see a deer running with wild abandon, realize that there may be a B F right behind it, plus the rest of the family in tow. My advice is that in a situation like this, realize that you are in an area of unusual activity, a serious killing zone, and you do not want to get involved. turn around and put some distance away from it. If there is an alternative route, take it. If there is not, wait for a while and only proceed with caution.
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Post by Jasocal on Aug 4, 2007 10:59:16 GMT -5
Hi JimDewey,
I take your point about the unavailability of cameras in the colonial wilderness. There are certainly practical limitations to what early wilderness denizens could have provided to evidence the bigfoot.
I guess my point is, we don't have anecdote or photgraphs or an abundance of observational evidence to suggest that there was a much more expansive population of these animals prior to the explosion of the European population across North America. You know, like batches of skeletons in the deltas and the prairies and by the lakes that over time become restricted to smaller and more remote and inaccessible areas. If human expansion compromised this species, we'd expect to find their remains (both corporal and societal) where they no longer are.
I mean, we know that we, at one time, decimated the population of the American bison. Many other species have been overwhelmed by human expansion. But we have evidence of them, particularly dead evidence.
We don't have forensic evidence of a once thriving population of these animals that's been beaten back to the remotest of the wilderness by the encroachment of modern man. Wherever they are, they seem always to have been there.
Which brings me back to my overarching point which I think you find some purchase in. Whereever they are, that seems to be where they've always been. We are hard pressed to find evidence of their existence much less find them. So does pulling back the curtain on them in order to pass a law saying they can't be harmed make any logical sense? It's like moving my steak dinner from the counter to the floor and admonishing my dog not to go and eat it.
For the record, I don't doubt accounts like yours. I don't know what you saw and it's not proof positive, but I don't doubt your honesty or sanity. I would like for bigfoot to exist. But paradoxically, I worry that proving it would cause it's demise.
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Post by jmdewey60 on Aug 4, 2007 18:17:17 GMT -5
Hey Jascol. I think you put it in a kind of funny way. That's cool. I do not disagree with your main point. I just have a certain way of looking at the situation. It comes from where I lived. The highest concentration of Indians, other than Mexico City, before the Spanish came, were the Temecu. They lived in what is now Temecula, California. This is the area that I am from. Two of my sisters live there. I studied archeology in community college. So, I did some studying of the local Indian history. I had to do a project for one of my classes. I had to survey one half of a square mile. I did it at the canyon that the Santa Margarita flows into below the Temecula valley. It was highly inhabited by Indians over a long period of time. They would travel up and down that river during different times of the year. They would go through what is now Camp Pendleton, to the Pacific coast and collect shellfish and go up to the beginning of the river, to Warner Springs. The Spanish basically pushed the Indians out of the valley and made it into a giant cattle ranch. There was a time between when the Indians left, and the white American settlers moved in. I think that B F used that period to fill in the vacuum. The main killing I was talking about, that we do not have physical evidence of, was when the Indians moved in. That was a long time ago, and I would not expect to be able to find anything from thousands of years ago. So, I think that the Warner Springs incident may be the best documented case of what happens when B F moves into an area that can support a large human population. Check out my previous posts.
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Post by jmdewey60 on Aug 4, 2007 19:55:27 GMT -5
On July 22 I posted under this topic about what was told to me about this incident at Warner springs. I do not think I have copies of the email correspondence. It was done on a computer that I have no idea where it is today. I was writing to the guy who has "Bigfoot Encounters" a web site about California sightings. I never saw a copy of the newspaper story and I do not think I ever read about it on his site. He was mainly trying to get information from me about what I knew about B F in that area. It may be a project he is working on that he has not finished. Any one interested in this story should contact that site owner.
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Post by jmdewey60 on Aug 6, 2007 20:45:45 GMT -5
I think that B F can be found, if you were fool enough to want to. Under the right circumstances they may be taken by surprise. I do not have any specific information to prove this assertion. This is just what I think, based on things I have experienced. I do not think it would be a good idea. I do not even think that it should be done. An idea has been put out on this forum that B F will set out sentinels so people will not be able to sneak up on them. I think their security can fail at certain times. Lets say that all the B F from a large area comes together every year for a convention. In the middle of this meeting, in a place they think is safe, and they are in such numbers that they are not afraid of anything. All the members could get so involved in what is going on between them all, that a person could walk right into the middle of it. Feel free to think that I am crazy, but the crazy person would be the one who would actually do something like this. I do not think you would have your camera at the end of this. If you are so intent to get your evidence of the existence of B F, then go for it. I would not do it myself. The reason I am bringing this up, is that I did something just a little bit like this years ago, in California. Again, feel free to not believe what I am saying, because it was a real surprise to me, when it happened. I was running for fun, one night with no shoes on, when I heard a bunch of coyotes howling, up on the hill, above me. I was curious and went up and followed this road that the ranchers used to drive the trucks on, to pick up the boxes of oranges when they were picked. There was a little turn-a-round at the end of one ridge and I ran into the middle of it. There were fifty coyotes, all in a big circle, around the outside edge of this clearing. They looked at me four or five seconds, then they all turned around and got away. Maybe Todd knows some one who has watched B F for years and has a good idea when they might have a big get-together. Timed-out just right, you could probably walk right up to them.
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Post by Buddharat on Aug 6, 2007 23:26:25 GMT -5
Todd, I have been followling your story for quite some time now. I've listened to most if not all of your "coast to coast" interviews as well as your "Beyond Reality" and "Darkness on the Edge of Town" appearances. I want nothing more to believe you but there are some things that just seem too suspicious. I'm not trying to attack you but to inform you as to why people like myself have a problem believing your story (and trust me, I want nothing more than to be proven wrong). I just hope you don't think I'm trying to pick on you. These are just somethings I really want to bring to the discussion.
I'll just preface these problems by saying that I believe whole-heartedly in Bigfoot as well as most other paranormal/cryptozoological ideas. While where I live is not friendly to bigfoot hunters (no forests), I am not someone who just sits on their butt and criticize. I actively investigate hauntings, sky watch for ufos, and research and test psychic abilities. As far as cryptozoology, I read as much as I can, and when I get more money and time I plan on doing some first hand investigations.
That said, I will also admit that over the last couple of years I've become a bit jaded. It seems like I can't go more than a couple of weeks without finding out that people who seemed so pure and true in their field was really lying (if you want examples I can give them but I think we all can name many). It also seems like almost every day when a new bigfoot or ghost video pops up on youtube only to find out a few days later that it's just a promotional video for some movie.
That brings me to listening to your interviews. I have to say that the more I listen to you, the more it seems like you have the worst luck ever (not making a joke or trying to insult you). When someone askes to see your data, it gets stolen by someone else, lost at customs, the names of the people drop their names. If only one thing happened (like say the dvd to coast getting held up at customs) it wouldn't have mattered, but it seems like more and more you are not producing what you have claimed. It seems like the only way to get this information that you say you have is to come to one of your shows (which I have read a review of, and it was less than complimenting). Also, you say that you have professionals (either doctors or scientists, I can't remember) but but I believe you said they asked not to be named. If I'm wrong, could you provide their names, if I'm right, that's another one of those coincidences that add up against you.
I know the quote about how if you believe no explination is required and if you don't, no explination will change your mind. Well, I'm a believer but I have been burned in the past as I said above. I want to believe. I really do.
I'll just end by saying, I hope you someday prove my doubts wrong.
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Post by Buddharat on Aug 7, 2007 7:00:12 GMT -5
I apologize for a few grammatical mistakes (as well as at least one spelling error) in my post. I was writing it at work. I just wanted to do a quick fix:
There wasn't supposed to be three "l"s in followling.
There was on instance when I had one too many buts.
And most of all, the sentence that read: "When someone askes to see your data, it gets stolen by someone else, lost at customs, the names of the people drop their names."
was supposed to be:
"When someone askes to see your data, it gets stolen by someone else, lost at customs, or people will drop their names at the last minute."
I'm sorry I made those mistakes and I wanted to point them out before someone else did.
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Post by jmdewey60 on Aug 7, 2007 18:55:20 GMT -5
To Buddaharat: If you took a minute to register, you can use the feature, here of using the spell check and you can modify your post. I usually change my posts three times before I am happy with them. Just a suggestion. I registered and I am not getting spammed or anything so it should be safe. It also makes it more fun when you can check who is logged on.
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